doi:10.1093/acrefore/9780190228620.013.532 claims that e.g Herodotus's Historia (Melpomene, 168–199) and Strabon's Geographica (book 1, chapter 3) have references to a past wetter/greener Sahara. Thenewthemesucks said that these are completely spurious reference to a fictional herodotus quote does anyone know what these references are, and if they exist? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:56, 20 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

You can read Herodotus here: [1]. There are references to fertile areas that I interpret as being oases; other than that, I see nothing of the sort. In 173 we read the sad story of the Psylli, whose water tanks dried up. When they trekked south in search of water they were buried in the sandy desert by a strong wind. And 181 tells us that going south from the sea coast, beyond the country haunted by wild beasts, there is a ridge of sand that stretches from Thebes in Egypt to the Pillars of Heracles.  ​‑‑Lambiam 20:58, 20 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

There's also a part about Lake Tritonis. And a part about the Fountain of the Sun, which is cold at noon and boils at midnight.  Card Zero  (talk) 04:41, 21 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Only the Psylli thing reads like a reference to a previous wetter Sahara to me ... but I am not sure that we are in the business to second-guess a source (not Herodotus or Strabo, either; the article that is referencing them) in this way. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 09:23, 21 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I see, that's ref "Bader2017" in your diff. I always advocate smoothing things over with the "according to" phrasing. According to an article in Oxford Research Encyclopedias, the ancient geographers Herodotus and Strabo both discussed ... and lose the part about at first questioned which implies this perception of what they meant is now a settled matter. Evidently it's still questioned.  Card Zero  (talk) 09:48, 21 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Rewritten like that, then. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:17, 22 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Paul Bunyan is said to have visited the Great Sahara Forest in his youth.DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 03:52, 22 July 2025 (UTC) Since they removed the item again, opened a discussion here Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:36, 28 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Is there any use pro-US, anti-US, or other of a flag with the stars all removed, so just a Blue field?Naraht (talk) 18:39, 21 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Are you asking about actual flags, or depictions in art (say where the flag is too small to paint stars, or a cartoon where the animation style is simplistic)? Blueboar (talk) 19:44, 21 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

If you google "u s flags without stars" you'll see a few potential examples. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:10, 21 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I found it drawn like that as an icon, used as part of the Tango Desktop Project. This icon is used when selecting a desktop locale. (Drawing stars is hard maybe? I see the stripes are also reduced to nine states.)  Card Zero  (talk) 04:27, 22 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

So few examples in google, that this discussion came up second on the phrase "u s flags without stars".Naraht (talk) 19:55, 22 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Esteemed Wikipedians, I am currently preparing to write the article “吉大港港” (Port of Chittagong) on Chinese Wikipedia. In the English article Port of Chittagong, it is stated:

“

In the 2nd century, Chittagong harbor appeared on Ptolemy's map, drawn by the Greco-Roman cartographer Claudius Ptolemy. The map mentions the harbor as one of the finest in the Eastern world.

”

The article cites Asia and Oceania: International Dictionary of Historic Places, which claims:

“

In the Second Century A.D., the Greek geographer Ptolemy noted that Chittagong was among the most impressive ports in the East.

”

Other articles like "History of Chittagong" also claims the similar thing. Article "Names of Chittagong" uses the Ptolemaic map but fails to furthr clarify. However, despite careful review, I have been unable to find any corresponding reference in either Ptolemy’s map see commons:File:Ptolemy Asia detail.jpg or in Ancient India as Described by Ptolemy, another book I think quite related to the matter, available through this Internet Archive link. I am now quite perplexed and would like to seek the guidance of knowledgeable individuals on this matter. —— 王桁霽 (talk) 17:11, 22 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't located any further sources that would definitively confirm it, but it seems based on some Ptolemy-based maps^[2][3][4] that Chittagong may be the area named Pentapolis. The book you've linked also seems to make this identification based on Pentapolis being "five cities" and Chaturgrâma supposedly being "four cities", but I don't know how much this makes sense linguistically. GalacticShoe (talk) 18:27, 22 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much. The clue of "Pentapolis" you offered is indeed crucial. Following this lead, I found a 1903 source — A Glossary of Anglo-Indian Colloquial Words and Phrases and of Kindred Terms — which records the following in its entry Chittagong: "The name [Chittagong] seems to be really a form of the Sanskrit Chaturgrāma (= Tetrapolis), [or according to others of Saptagrāma, 'seven villages'], and it is curious that near this position Ptolemy has a Pentapolis, very probably the same place." In contrast, the Wikipedia article "Names of Chittagong" offers an explanation in which the first part (Chitta) is derived from "lamp," yet provides no reference for this interpretation. Given that, whether made by scholars or not, all such speculations are far removed from Ptolemy’s own time, I consider the former account, when combined with what was offered in Ancient India as Described by Ptolemy, to be the more credible. —— 王桁霽 (talk) 22:26, 22 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

For reference, I believe the Sanskrit for Chaturgrāma would be something like चतुर्ग्राम, from चतुर् (catúr, "four") and ग्राम (grā́ma, "village"). Someone more versed in Sanskrit could offer more insight. GalacticShoe (talk) 06:36, 23 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

In the 1872 Monier-Williams dictionary catúrgrāma (चतुर्ग्राम) is glossed as: ‘containing 4 villages,’ N. of a country.^[5][6]  ​‑‑Lambiam 09:56, 23 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

A quick Google Books search turns up a couple of sources that mention the possible Chaturgrāma–Pentapolis connection.^[7][8] They also bring up a hypothesis by Francis Wilford that it comes from Pattanphulli, supposedly meaning "flourishing seat".^[9] Note that our own article on Wilford suggests that his claims should be taken with a grain of salt; I am still trying to see if there's a linguistic basis for the name. GalacticShoe (talk) 17:39, 23 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The Monier-Williams dictionary Lambiam has provided above does have phulli (फुल्लि) meaning "expanding, blossoming",^[10] but I can't find a corresponding pattan meaning "seat". GalacticShoe (talk) 17:42, 23 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

There is paṭṭana (पट्टन), meaning "a city".^[11][12]  ​‑‑Lambiam 21:07, 23 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@GalacticShoe and Lambian:, Allow me to once again express my gratitude for the efforts of both of you. I look forward to any discoveries that may emerge and be reflected in Wikipedia. —— 王桁霽 (talk) 18:20, 24 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

"The Aborigines' Friend and the Colonial Intelligencer" (1855) incudes a letter sent from "Dohne Port, Amatola Mountain", in British Kaffraria (now South Africa), and mentioning "the Dohne [military] Post". We have an article, Döhne, about a South African agricultural research station, in the same area, but that does not seem to be the same thing (although the entomology is no doubt shared), and is not coastal.

Amatola Mountain, it seems, is now known as Amathole Mountains.

Where was Dohne Port? And the post? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:09, 23 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

This German text writes 𝔇𝔬𝔥𝔫𝔢 ⸗ 𝔓𝔬𝔯𝔱 without umlaut, and also tells us that its name is now (in 1857) "Stutterheimsstadt", presumably the same as Stutterheim, which indeed is close to the Amathole range.  ​‑‑Lambiam 20:17, 23 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

And the latter tells us: "It was later renamed Dohne after the first missionary in the area, Jacob Ludwig Döhne, but in 1857 it was reverted to its previous name, with the name Döhne referring only to a small station nearby." Confusingly, it si not a port.

I have made Dohne into a dab page. Thank you. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:19, 23 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

"Port" is a transcription error for "Post". reading on in the letter the author says "I should visit the Dohne Post" and later "I arrived here this day", "here" being of course the place whence he wrote. DuncanHill (talk) 20:50, 23 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

That makes sense. Thank you. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 22:53, 23 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not so sure. See the link to the German text I posted above, which uses 𝔇𝔬𝔥𝔫𝔢 ⸗ 𝔓𝔬𝔯𝔱 five times. Another source wrting 𝔇𝔬𝔥𝔫𝔢 ⸗ 𝔓𝔬𝔯𝔱: [13]. The whole thing started with a military fort named Dohne Post. Then people settled in huts around the fort, and called the settlement "Stutterheim".^[14] According to our article Stutterheim, the town was later (when?) renamed "Dohne" but reverted to its previous name in 1857. I can't tell from what I've seen whether the fort was considered part of the town, but the fort, named "Dohne Post", and the town, are not the same entity. The record suggests that contemporary people used the name "Dohne Port" for the town.  ​‑‑Lambiam 10:29, 24 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

With particular reference to the OP's remark that the place is not coastal: if the German source was repeating a name used by the "German settlers from the 1850s" (per Stutterheim), I suggest that Port is more likely to have signified something (metaphorically?) suggestive of a door or gateway (taken from Latin rather than ur-German) than the English meaning, which in German is Hafen (harbour, port, refuge, haven). {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.5.172.125 (talk) 11:24, 24 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Latin porta ("gate") became German Pforte. Latin portus ("harbor", "haven") became German Port ("haven"), now archaic. The phrase nach dem nahen Dohne-Port reveals that the term has masculine or neuter gender, unlike porta and her gendered descendants in Romance and Germanic languages.

Also, German Post does not mean the same as English post, except in the sense of "mail", a post on social media, or as a term in basketball. For the military sense of a place where troops are stationed, German uses Posten.

Perhaps the Germans referred to the fort as Dohne-Fort, and some settlers started using Dohne-Port as a playful modification to refer to the village, which may have felt as a haven to the settlers.  ​‑‑Lambiam 15:28, 24 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I'm editing a transcript of an informal discussion (which means spellings of proper names may be guesses) and the speaker says at one point "Some of the people canonized as saints by the Catholic church were definitely mentally subnormal,... some of them even imbeciles. In some cases they died young and were canonized, especially if they came from influential families, and yet they’re among the saints of the Catholic Church. There was one, for instance, I forget his full name, I think he was a St Peter Gonzagos, or something like that. He belonged to a very noble, not to say royal family – I’ll have to check this in the encyclopedia – I think those of Spain and Italy.... From the age of about seven he kept long lists of his sins. He used to spend the whole day writing out these lists of sins and he put them in a big wooden box and they were discovered after his premature death. And largely on the strength of that he was canonized because he had such an acute sense of sinfulness, so he must have been a saint! But he seemed to have been practically a young moron. He died at the age of 16 or 17... And there were thousands and thousands of sheets of paper covered with lists of his sins." My Google fu has failed me. This was spoken about fifty years ago so it wouldn't have been Acutis or anyone like that. Shantavira|^{feed me} 09:08, 25 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

No definite answer, but the alleged name you transcribed as "Gonzagos" might point to Aloysius Gonzaga, who was of Italian high nobility, died young (aged 23), and got canonized. Our article on him doesn't say anything about writing lists of sins though. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:47, 25 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Very likely the narrator conflated various stories and legends. Giovanni Pelingotto, not a saint but beatified, died aged 64, reportedly produced weekly lists of his sins,^[15] which by his death must have had a combined total of tens of thousands of entries. Keeping such lists was a commonly done thing among pious men.  ​‑‑Lambiam 19:58, 25 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Thanks both for your input. Shantavira|^{feed me} 07:40, 26 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I am trying to look up whether there exists an english expression for de:Essbare Stadt, somehow related to urban gardening/farming. Any ideas? --Matthiasb (talk) 20:14, 25 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Is Community gardening a sufficiently similar concept? Perhaps Community-supported agriculture or Commoning?-Gadfium (talk) 23:31, 25 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Toni Morrison gave a speech at Howard University known as "The First Solution" on March 3, 1995. An excerpt from that speech is better known as "Racism and Fascism". It was shown on C-SPAN at the time, but I also think it may have been re-broadcast in April, but I don't know for sure. Within that speech, Morrison depicted a series of ten steps leading to fascism. Some aspects of that speech are a response to the claims made in The Bell Curve, as well as other attempts to marginalize black people in a way that is identical to the goals of fascism. Shortly thereafter, Umberto Eco gave a speech at Columbia University about his direct experience with fascism, breaking it down into 14 steps on April 25, 1995 (later published as Ur-Fascism).

I am aware of the convergent discovery hypothesis. Morrison and Eco were one year apart in age and were both writers. Morrison notably spoke about Eco in her famous Jefferson Lecture on March 25, 1996, almost a year after her speech at Howard. But, I'm not sure about Eco or if he has ever mentioned Morrison.

Is it beyond the realm of possibility that Eco happened to watch the C-SPAN speech, which then motivated him to write his famous speech at Columbia in April? Or is it the other way around? Did Morrison previously read something Eco wrote about fascism? Was Ur-Fascism previously published in another form in Italy before March 1995? Or, per the convergent discovery hypothesis, was this part of the emerging zeitgeist? Personally, I'm leaning against the C-SPAN hypothesis for one reason: the original audio is extremely difficult to hear or understand. Then again, this might just be an artifact of the current upload. It might be possible that the original audio as it was broadcast was clear. Viriditas (talk) 22:00, 25 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Update: it turns out that the zeitgeist idea might be the best explanation. I just discovered this: Eatwell, Roger (Jul-Sep 1994). "Why are fascism and racism reviving in Western Europe?" Political Quarterly. 65 (3). Viriditas (talk) 23:04, 25 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

While you wait for an answer, Unibo has acquired Eco's library, though I'm not aware whether a public catalog has yet been made of his personal papers [16]. As (or, more likely, if ...) the papers are processed, part of your question might be answered about the genesis of Ur-Fascism. As far as I can see, Morrison's papers do not have an earlier version of her First Solution speech, only (presumably, though the catalog doesn't say so) the typescript she read from. Urve (talk) 01:07, 26 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Morrison's speech states that the move to a "final solution" is not a jump but takes a first step, and then another, ..., and proceeds to dissect the full move into 10 steps. Eco's 14 items are different. They do not describe "steps" toward fascism, but are meant to identify key elements that commonly appear in fascist movements, not in any particular temporal order. The two are complementary approaches to a phenomenon; neither can have served as direct inspiration for the other.  ​‑‑Lambiam 06:00, 26 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I've read most of what Eco wrote in his lifetime, and I don't recall his ever mentioning Toni Morrison; he did not tend to speak much about contemporary writers in any case. He wrote about his personal experience under fascism throughout his life, however, for example in the novels Foucault's Pendulum and The Mysterious Flame of Queen Loana, or in the essay collection Turning Back the Clock: Hot Wars and Media Populism, in addition to Ur-Fascism, the collection that includes the essay "14 General Properties of Fascism". So it was a question that interested him for a long time, and I doubt that Morrison's lecture had any influence on that. Xuxl (talk) 13:46, 26 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, everyone. I think that pretty much covers it. I agree with what Lambiam wrote, and I appreciate them adding a link to the companion piece "Peril" (2008) over at the main article, as I neglected to add or discuss that material and will get to it soon. I marked this resolved as I don't see anything else left to discuss. Viriditas (talk) 22:36, 26 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Describing methods used to extract rent payments by British colonialists in India, The Aborigines' Friend and the Colonial Intelligencer (1855, p.28 30) says "their hands were pressed in an instrument of torture called a chirtaloo".

The only Google hits for that word are for the same article, in various publications.

Can we identify the device? Is it perhaps a mistranslation of a Hindi, Tamil, or other Indian language word? Can we find a depiction? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:50, 26 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

This is part of a string of complaints made in a petition by inhabitants of Guntur, in Andhra Pradesh, where the language is Telugu. I see that words ending in -lu are often plurals, and ceyyalu is "hands". But you wouldn't call an instrument of torture simply "the hands". So here ends my guessing.

One more guess: wikt:చేతులు (cētulu). This is the same word.  Card Zero  (talk) 14:52, 26 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

"Chirtaloo" seems to be a Telugu borrowing of "chirt". "Chirt" is Scottish, a noun or verb meaning "an act of pressing or squashing that expresses liquid" [17]. Google translates తలు pronounced "taloo" to mean "heads" [18] (although "heads" translates to "talalu"). So it could have meant "heads press". The quote about it being used on their hands is on page 30. Modocc (talk) 04:42, 27 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

My money is on cētulu, meaning "hands", which I think is pronounced more or less like /t͡ʃeːtulu/, close enough to the presumable RP pronunciation /t͡ʃɜːtəlu/ of chirtaloo (compare the RP pronunciations of chirp and skirt), especially considering that /eː/ does not occur in RP, its closest alternative (see Received Pronunciation § Vowels) being /ɜː/.  ​‑‑Lambiam 08:11, 27 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

"Cētulu" is pronounced here. It does not match. Besides why would they call it "hands"? Iron presses were used as crushing torture devices such as the Scottish examples in Thumbscrew (torture) and "chirt" fits if one gets pressed hard enough. Modocc (talk) 08:29, 27 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Page number fixed (and link updated), thank you. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:47, 29 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

It was the native revenue officers whose use of torture was being complained about, and the evil British overlords who were trying to suppress it. DuncanHill (talk) 12:06, 30 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Over at Nina Power, we have a ref to an article in The Times. However, the only url and indeed mention of this article, apart from WP, seems to be [19]. GALE is a database in the WP:LIBRARY.

Any thought on why this particular article, "Twitter no place for debate, judge tells intellectuals." is so obscure? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:25, 27 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps because the legal case in question was a "storm in a teacup" (as we say). I wonder if anyone has verified that the article did indeed appear in The Times as detailed (though I presume the reprint in the source actually linked is merely more accessible)? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.193.253.201 (talk) 14:02, 27 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Gale (publisher) says "this was in The Times", and I consider that publisher generally reliable for that fact. But [20] or anywhere else I've seen has no trace of it. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:33, 27 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The judgment reported on can be read here. Google search fails to find the article in the domain thetimes.com, and it is not listed in the list of articles by David Brown. Curiously, the judge in the case, who is well known, is Justice Collins Rice, not "Rice Collins". It is hard to believe that a seasoned correspondent like David Brown or the editorial staff at The Times would not have caught this.  ​‑‑Lambiam 14:35, 27 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I read part of the judgement, quite interesting. Tried to find earlier IA versions of the Brown list to see if the article was listed at some point, but failed. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:11, 27 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

NewsBank has the article and says it appeared on page 19 of The Times on November 10, 2023. John M Baker (talk) 05:25, 30 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Then it seems possible The Times discreetly removed it at some point for unstated reason. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:10, 30 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Back in the 1990s I was in Paris, and was taken to a fromagerie and given a piece of sweet cheese, that included plums, to eat as a desert - much like one would eat a slice of fruit cake. In texture it was close to what we in England call bread pudding, or perhaps a dense cheesecake. I seem to recall that it was from northern France - maybe Brittany or Normandy.

Occasional searching over the years has not found it - can other Wikimedians do better? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:01, 28 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Far Breton? ---Sluzzelin talk 18:48, 28 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

That looks very likely, thank you. So not actually a cheese. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:15, 28 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Can anyone definitively identify the building in the foreground at left here? - Jmabel | Talk 19:44, 28 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

US Capitol staff entrance (using Google Image search with the woman cropped out). Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:18, 28 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

A barrister by the name of Thomas Hughes gave a speech "A Lecture on the Slop-System" in 1877. Was this Tom Brown's Thomas Hughes who was certainly a lawyer, Thomas Raffles Hughes who was a barrister, or some other Thomas Hughes altogether?

In How contagion and infection are spread, through the sweating system in the tailoring trade by Peter Shorrocks (1877) p. 7, quoting Dr. Thorne Thorne(?!), 17 March, 1877, in the Hampshire Telegraph and Sussex Chronicle, "It will be remembered that the death of Sir Robert Peel's daughter was traced to the tailors who made her riding-habit in the same room with a fever patient, and Dr. Richardson stated in his recent speech that he had seen a riding-habit thrown over the bed to cover a person suffering from the same contagious disease."

I can't quickly find a record of this, although the claim is repeated (in 1906 or so typhus is mentioned). Nor does a death date prior to 1877 fit All the best: Rich Farmbrough 15:55, 29 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

An AI query credits the 1852 lecture to Thomas Hughes. Modocc (talk) 16:44, 29 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

And he was a member of Lincoln's Inn in agreement with the published work. [21]. Modocc (talk) 17:05, 29 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Also, obviously, the other Thomas Hughes was not yet born at that time the lecture was given. Nor have I done a thorough search for any other possible barrister-at-law that might have given it. Modocc (talk) 17:23, 29 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

BTW, I've prompted the same AI query several times and it changed the work's date. From 1855 (initially) to 1877 (published 1878 by Central Co-operative Board in Manchester ). Modocc (talk) 18:04, 29 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

AI finally answered: Yes, Thomas Hughes (1822–1896), the author of "Tom Brown's School Days", wrote a lecture titled "A Lecture on the Slop System" in 1852. The lecture, subtitled "especially as it bears upon the females engaged in it", was delivered at the Literary and Mechanics' Institution at Reading on February 3rd, 1852, and later published by W. & H. Pollard in Exeter. Modocc (talk) 18:15, 29 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Unless this can be verified independenttly, there is insufficient ground to trust the answer.  ​‑‑Lambiam 19:21, 29 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. Especially since Google's AI is also using Wikipedia and our contributions here (which can be a bit off the mark and/or misunderstood) to help refine its answers. It was helpful in finding a copy of the original lecture, assuming it's the same one. Modocc (talk) 19:31, 29 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

World English Historical Dictionary has the Thomas Hughes of Tom Brown writing A Lecture on the Slop System (1852), with a quotation from J. M. Ludlow about him and it. Our article on Ludlow is utterly inadequate. DuncanHill (talk) 21:21, 29 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Dr Thorne Thorne is Sir Richard Thorne Thorne, Crown nominee on the General Medical Council. DuncanHill (talk) 21:24, 29 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Sir Robert Peel's daughter - I've found several accounts over the years, some say fever, some smallpox, some typhus, some scarlet fever. Some say she died, and some say she was afflicted. The earliest version I have found is from the Greenock Advertiser, Tuesday 11 March 1851, page 1. The report is called "Public Meetings - The Sweating System". The meeting, in Queen Street Hall, Edinburgh, was chaired by Professor Gregory, and addressed by Mr J. W. Parker from London. He read extracts from inquiries made by committees of which he was a member. "He declared that he himself had seen a riding habit which had been given out from one of the first houses in the West End to a sweater, and which he made in a small room where there was a person lying ill with typhus fever; that, on inquiry, he found the riding habit was for the late Sir Robert Peel's daughter, and shortly afterwards he saw, in the papers, accounts of her ladyship being seized with that distemper". Professor Aytoun moved the vote of thanks. DuncanHill (talk) 00:11, 30 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I cannot yet identify Mr J. W. Parker, but John William Parker and his son, also John William Parker (1820–1860), were involved with Hughes, Ludlow, and Charles Kingsley, so they seem likely candidates, probably the son. DuncanHill (talk) 00:22, 30 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Several reports of Viscountess Villiers (Julia Peel, wife of Lord Villiers, and eldest child of Sir Robert Peel, 2nd Baronet, the famous one) being seriously ill in November 1845. Some reports say scarlet fever, though many reports are not specific. There was ulceration of the throat. Sir Robert, PM at the time, was recalled early from Windsor Castle because of it. She survived and lived till 1893. DuncanHill (talk) 01:12, 30 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! You guys are incredible. All the best: Rich Farmbrough 14:26, 30 July 2025 (UTC).[reply]

Theologically, where does the mandatory nature of the Hajj originate? Is it believed to be commanded in the Qur'an, or do Muslims believe that God commanded it through an extra-quranical prophecy of Muhammad, or do they believe that he had the authority to lay down commands of this sort by himself? History of the Hajj says Hajj was made compulsory in 09th Hijri, i.e. AD 638, but I'm unsure if that's when the Qur'an was first interpreted to require it, or if that's the date of the recognition of a relevant hadith, or something else. Nyttend (talk) 22:19, 29 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Here is a compilation of Qur'an verses on the Hajj or Umrah. The obligation stems from verse 97 of Al-Imran:

And [due] to Allah from the people is a pilgrimage to the House – for whoever is able to find thereto a way.

Tradition has it that the verse was revealed at the event of the Mubahala, which is believed to have taken place "on the ninth year of Hijrah (632 CE)".^[22]  ​‑‑Lambiam 07:45, 30 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Morning Folks!! I'm looking for help locating the village of Narwarowka is. This is for the Robert Barth article. Barth was captured by Soviet forces near this village. It is a village apparently located 60km to the S by SE of Warsaw but Google maps fails to find either Narwarowka or Narvarovka, which is how Google translates the cited German source so "Anfang März 1942 lief er bei Narwarowka zur Roten Armee über. ln der Sowjet union erhielt er eine Ausbildung als Fallschirmspringer für illegale Einsätze in Deutschland"^[1] Another source states that he was captured in Kramatorsk in the Donetsk region. Both these sources ^[2] Both these are authorative with well established resistance academics. One is from the main German organisation. I'm wondering if they are the same place, close to each other and they they are confused, e.g. The first one may be appelation and translated wrongly. I posted a question up at the help desk about 3 weeks ago and it was no help. I was advised to open this request. The help request is at [23] at Location of Narwarowka. Thanks. scope_creep^Talk 06:59, 30 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I have the Weigelt book, so give the exact German if needed, if its any help. scope_creep^Talk 07:00, 30 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

We have two articles on people with this name, Robert Barth and Robert A. Barth, neither of which is this communist resistance fighter.

Weigelt has "bei Kramatorskaja im Gebiet Donezk". This seems to have been translated from a Russian source by someone whose command of Russian was limited, since "Kramatorskaja" is an adjective modifying a feminine noun. Perhaps the Russian source referred to the Краматорская агломерация (Kramatorsk agglomeration) mentioned on the Russian Wikipedia. Your first source does not specify a region, and in 1942 all of Poland was occupied by Nazi Germany with no Red Army units present, so presumably the "Narwarowka" referred to is a village in the Kramatorsk agglomeration. The Ukrainian name would be Нарварівка (Narvarivka). While I can't find such a place, there are umpteen places named Варварівка (Varvarivka), two of which are in Donetsk Oblast: Varvarivka 1, Varvarivka 2. From Varvarivka 1 it is about 60 km to the city of Kramatorsk, while from Varvarivka 2 it is about 30 km.  ​‑‑Lambiam 09:39, 30 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I can't help find the place but with the information supplied so far it can't be 60km S by SE of Warsaw - this would place it somewhere west of Lublin and in March 1942 I don't think the Red Army would have been anywhere near there - this was well within the German puppet General-Government which the Red Army didn't invade until 1944 - see map https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:General_Government_for_the_occupied_Polish_territories_(1941).png Daveosaurus (talk) 10:22, 30 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Morning Folks!! @Lambiam:, @Daveosaurus: Yes. You seem to have run into the same kind of problems I did, although I didn't find the Kramatorsk agglomeration article on the ru wikipedia, nor the other two villages, although I did have a go a translating it and doing a search which didn't work. I think the only thing that can be done is leave it out as it seems to be highly subjective, although apparently the editor on the most authoritive source, Weigelt did visit the Russian archives following the Glasnost period, before they were closed again. It may be Varvarivka 1 but not sure. I suspect it must be some kind of translation error, although both seem to think they are right. Even Kesaris 1979 has left the location out and he is usually quite accurate on these matters. That is unfortunate. I hate to miss stuff out. scope_creep^Talk 07:09, 1 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Where can I find out what Richard Posner thinks about Trump v. United States? I've been surfing the web and looking through wikipedia without result. I had heard that John Roberts has a lot of respect for Posner's opinionsand Roberts wrote the very controversial decision.Rich (talk) 16:51, 30 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

This 2023 article in Law & Liberty states that Posner was diagnosed with Alzheimer's "a few months after hanging up his robe" (in 2017) and has "long since been moved to a nursing facility".

https://lawliberty.org/features/the-mystery-of-richard-posner

I'm not sure, bearing in mind the dates, that he would have expressed a view on Trump v. United States. Dalliance (talk) 18:52, 1 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Leon is currently recorded on the Treblinka database as someone who was murdered there in 1943.

https://base.memoryoftreblinka.org/people_db/p37178/

This is NOT the case. He died in Australia age 91 in 2008.

https://www.geni.com/people/Leon-Roman/6000000007856394421

In his Arolsen file he states he was in Treblinka:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PFNlTyW_BXJ5oHQUH0G1d7dG8m8KN9nZ/view?usp=drivesdk

But I can’t find any other record of his escape from this place.

His wife thought he had perished in Treblinka according to her testimony.

I am seeking any other evidence he WAS in Treblinka and escaped. Johndurkan (talk) 19:03, 30 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

FWIW, the birth dates are different, August 26, 1914 vs August 28, 1916, though the parents' names and birthplace are the same. Clarityfiend (talk) 21:40, 30 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Both Leon and his brother were imprisoned in Pawiak

https://archiwum.muzeum-niepodleglosci.pl/pawiak/kartoteka-online/

Where was Leon before that? Johndurkan (talk) 08:18, 31 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I asked both ChatGPT and Gemini, but they both got confused by the question, so now I'm asking humans. Is the set of kosher mammals exactly the same as the biological clade of Ruminantia? Is there any animal that's in one group but not the other? Both chatbots got sidetracked by camels, which belong to neither group and are therefore irrelevant to the question. —Mahāgaja · talk 12:52, 1 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

See List of artiodactyls (Ruminantia is a suborder) and Unclean_animal#Mammals. Modocc (talk) 14:14, 1 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, but neither of those answer my question directly. Both Kosher animals § Land animals and Unclean animal § Mammals just list examples of animals that meet the requirements without saying whether that list is coterminous with the biological clade. —Mahāgaja · talk 14:42, 1 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

All of the families of the suborder Ruminantia are shown in the List of artiodactyls article's classification section. Given that and the requirement that land-dwelling animals be artiodactyles and ruminants they should all be listed there. Modocc (talk) 14:55, 1 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

• Tricky! Mostly for giraffes.

What is your definition of kosher? Who are you taking this from, and what is their defining aspect and authority for this?

There are several aspects to being kosher. Some are obvious, others much less so. Is there a tradition (mesorah) of the animal being eaten and regarded as kosher? If not, it may be ruled out simply for that. So discovering a new species of cow might not be enough, even if it's clearly a cow (and otherwise kosher). This has been a real question over many bird species. But many Jews just don't see this as a restriction at all.

Do you know what it is? Zemer are kosher (specifically listed, Deuteronomy 14:5), no-one agrees what they are. Most say giraffes, but the Talmud (Chullin somewhere) says wild goat instead. Likewise the pygarg. Many species are just poorly identified or lost in translation - you can find the rock hyrax (one of my favourite critters and named as non-kosher) described as 'badgers' in some late medieval Bibles, and that has now crossed into the Southern Baptists where they don't even have the right sort of badger.

Are you doing good basic observational biology? Where do camels have teeth? Upper incisors? Do you think this matters? (a big question in the theology of science!)

Or in the end, ask Natan Slifkin. Who sorted that camelgiraffe! question out once and for all (camelgiraffes in general are, but it's near impossible to obtain a single specifically kosher camelgiraffe in a kosher state). A fascinating chap who I've had long discussions with in the past, and who sadly now seems to be being cancelled by his community (and why his books are largely out of print). Andy Dingley (talk) 15:46, 1 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

This is only the second time that I've heard of camels being claimed to be kosher. Our article on Kosher animals has references that camels are not kosher because they do not have split hooves. Also, they are not true ruminants. These distinctions Camelids Are Not Ruminants are important and would seem to matter in terms of what may be safe to eat or not, regarding potential parasites and diseases. Modocc (talk) 16:42, 1 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

What our article Pygarg fails to mention is that the Ancient Greek word πύγαργος already existed before the Septuagint translation. Herodotus used it to refer to some sort of antelope, and Aristotle used it to refer to a bird of prey that might have been the white-tailed eagle. Anyway, all I meant by kosher was following the "cloven hoof + chewing the cud" rule. Are there any animals outside Ruminantia that have cloven hooves and chew their cud; and are there any animals inside Ruminantia that either don't have cloven hooves or that don't chew their cud? —Mahāgaja · talk 19:03, 1 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Ruminantia chew cud. The only other artiodactyls that also chew cud are Camelidae and they are not kosher. Also, a quick inspection of the animal species listed under the Ruminantia tree should verify claims that they each do have a cloven hoof. Modocc (talk) 19:11, 1 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

• Sorry! My typo there and I meant giraffe, not camel. Camels (and all the camelids) are definitely treif. Both because they have only the one sign, also because they're specifically listed as unclean. Llamas (camelids) fail under the first one too: cud-chewing, but theire hooves aren't cloven. Andy Dingley (talk) 20:33, 1 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not a biologist or a posek, but a Christian historian who's worked in the Jewish community. I suppose the Talmud has detailed lists of animals that are kashrut, but since Torah gives qualifications for deeming a land animal kashrut — rather than saying "everything is kashrut except these ones" (as happens with birds) or "everything is treif except these ones" — there may be animals in the Americas or Australia that qualify, animals that were unknown to the compilers of the Oral Torah and would have been included in a list if they were known. Who knows; perhaps there are even animals in East Asia that were utterly unknown to Jews until recent centuries, and therefore poskim might have had to sort out their status in the modern era and could even have ended up disagreeing. "Two Jews, three opinions", as the saying goes, even if you ignore non-observant and liberal Jews who don't care about this kind of question. Nyttend (talk) 19:47, 1 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

PS, remember that the Torah definition of "chew the cud" is broader than the biological definition. For halakhic purposes, rabbits chew cud (Vayikra 11:6 — And the hare, because it brings up its cud, but does not have a [completely] cloven hoof; it is unclean for you), even though their process of consuming droppings (see Cecotrope) is very different from regurgitation of partially digested food from the stomach. Again, just guessing, but it's quite possible that the scholars of the Talmud were unaware of some cecotrophic animals with split hooves, especially in regions of the world utterly unknown to ancient Jews. Nyttend (talk) 19:54, 1 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The ancient Hebrew scholars no doubt observed that there were some species and practices that were safer than others with respect to preparing food. Had they figured out that hand-washing helped, that instruction would have passed down too. Of course they were unawares of New World species, but those discoveries did not change the nature of ruminants, all of which have common traits and are understood to be kosher when properly prepared in accordance with their traditions. Hence, these animals' domestication and food supply is still relevant. Modocc (talk) 20:12, 1 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Hand-washing before eating was prescribed in various circumstances: see Handwashing in Judaism.

In general though, I question the assumption that the kosher laws pertaining to food were only introduced for health and safety reasons following real-world observations. It seems to me that they were merely one of several ways in which arbitrary practices were deliberately imposed in order to create differentiation between the (proto-) Isrealites and the other Caananites from whose general culture they emerged. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.7.142.158 (talk) 00:38, 3 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Glad to know they practiced cleanliness too. Perhaps they had other reasons. However, many species such as cats have highly toxic livers, others are prone to carrying lethal worms like pigs, and still others the bubonic plaque (rodents).. Their code prevented unnecessary illness. Modocc (talk) 00:59, 3 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Also, a citation is needed for "...of some cecotrophic animals with split hooves,..." given that I cannot find any in the literature. It would seem that modern scholars are either unaware, or I just have not looked hard enough, trying my best to convey what we do know about kosher mammals with appropriate references. Modocc (talk) 21:51, 1 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Once again, I'm not a biologist; I have no idea if such animals exist. But if they do, it's possible that they were unknown to the Talmudists. Also, handwashing is distinct from matters of kashrut, and it's not related to biological cleanliness; the cited article notes that pre-meal washing is required only in connection with certain kinds of foods, and all of this grows out of legal requirements related to ritual cleanliness for priests serving in the Temple. The article doesn't mention anything about a Talmudic requirement to wash in connection with eating meat, milk, or fish, all of which are necessarily much more important to kashrut than plant material is — aside from bead made with chametz and other items during Pesach, all kinds of vegan foods never in contact with animal materials are always acceptable at all times. Finally, I don't know if the Talmudists talk about food-safety concerns, but the biblical passages underlying these laws don't say anything about food-safety; as Kashrut#Philosophical notes, they're chukim; even the detailed items, e.g. "do not cook a young goat in its mother's milk", lack explanations, and nowhere in Torah suggests a medical/nutritional aspect. Nyttend (talk) 07:10, 3 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

PS, another factor is what you mean by "kosher". Do you mean something that complies with the original biblical text (i.e. the Karaites would eat it), or something that either is specifically permitted by the Talmud and that has a history of being eaten by Jews, or that has been the subject of post-Talmudic rulings in favour of its legitimacy? [There can be significant differences between the two, since kashrut and other elements of halakha contain many "extra" laws intended to prevent accidental violation of biblical laws. Meat and milk laws are a type of this, all created to ensure that people don't violate the biblical law against eating a young goat cooked in its mother's milk.] If you look at Kashrut#Permitted and forbidden animals, you'll see that poskim ruled in 2008 that the giraffe was kashrut. Before 2008, was it kashrut (because it met the qualifications), or was it not exactly kashrut (because Jews haven't historically eaten it and no rabbis have ruled on the question)? The okapi is a ruminant with cloven hoofs, but Jews didn't know about it until recent generations, and its rarity (even rarer than giraffes) means that it's probably not gotten any recent attention from a kashrut perspective. Nyttend (talk) 09:10, 3 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Found in St Mary's Church, North Mymms, was this 19th century encaustic tile panel, depicting a saint, or perhaps Jesus, with some people and a lot of snakes. The companion piece shows the Binding of Isaac from the Book of Genesis, so one might expect another episode from the Old Testament, but I'm at a loss. Alansplodge (talk) 18:12, 2 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe Numbers 21:4-9? --Wrongfilter (talk) 18:18, 2 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oh yes, you may well be right. I must have been asleep at Sunday School for that one :-) Alansplodge (talk) 19:04, 2 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

WHAAOE: Nehushtan. Alansplodge (talk) 19:04, 2 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

What's a WHAAOE? Aaron Liu (talk) 20:03, 2 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia Has An Article On Everything! --Wrongfilter (talk) 20:10, 2 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) "Wikipedia Has An Article On Everything"; see WP:WHAAOE. Apologies for not linking. Alansplodge (talk) 20:13, 2 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Browsing the subject shows that the "pole" mentioned in Numbers is usually shown as being cruciform in Christian art, like this 17th century painting, perhaps because of John 3:14. Alansplodge (talk) 20:29, 2 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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