Monster Train 2

Monster Train 2

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Rage Seraph needs tuning on cov10
I know it is a common feeling among the community that corruption seraph is the hardest, but after playing through close to half of the cov 10 combinations with titan kills as well, I have to say rage seraph is almost certainly the hardest at this difficulty level, and definitely feels like it needs some tuning done to make it not be such an outlier.

The first thing that makes it harder on cov10 titan runs is that the titan trial makes the rage seraph fight disproportionately harder compared to the others. By slapping 2 melee weakness instead of 1, that means a tank eating seraph's attack needs to survive at minimum 90 incoming damage, a pretty high bar to reach. By applying rage 6 instead of 3 to a floor, it all but ensures that if the sweepers attack, they will be killing your backline, especially when you consider the elite versions are there with multistrike too.

Compare this to the corruption fight. Yes, seraph now applies 4 corruption instead of 2, but he still doubles corruption on his attack target as he does normally. The extra corruption on your backline DOES make it harder to keep them alive, but not to an insane degree. If you look at the sap fight, the titan challenge does almost nothing. Sure your units get more sap, but odds are if you're able to beat sap seraph to begin with, you have scaling damage, which means the increased sap just makes it take 1, maybe 2 more turns to get past it.

The second thing that makes it harder, and in my opinion what should be looked at for tuning, is the waves. They require a lot of answers, and each of those answers need to be GOOD answers. You need a way to deal 50 damage every turn to backline enemies, and you need to be able to do it before they attack, because the sweepers attacking is devastating for all but the most extremely tanky decks. Inferno room is of course an easy answer technically available to all clan combos if you can find it (and make it deployable), but besides that, answers are very hard to come by. And, even if you DO get the inferno room, you're still punished for that by...

Amalgams, these stupid birds paired with the sweepers are almost guaranteed to strip anywhere from 20-60hp from your pyre depending on your setup, and that's assuming you DO kill them, they'll do much more if they leak, which isn't uncommon given they have nearly as much hp as...

Heavies... 500 hp, ok, I get it, I'm supposed to have a lot of damage. Why in gods name am I expected to bash through multiple 500hp enemies in one turn. The answer may seem like killing them on all floors, but this isn't really viable in probably 90%+ of decks.

The combination of these guys, while they're getting 12 damage from seraph every time he shows up on the floor with them, AND you have to eat a +200% damage hit from something with your tank, feels utterly ridiculous to deal with. None of the problems it presents are impossible to solve, and none of them have only a single solution, but it asks you for SO MANY solutions that the other fights simply do not. They have aspects that can make them harder to beat for certain decks, but it always feels so much easier to prepare for a corruption or sap seraph than it is to prepare for rage seraph (I often find myself just praying to find a deployable inferno room, or at least a non-deployable one if nothing else).

Anyway, I'd like it to be toned down just a bit. I don't think it needs some huge nerf, but taking off some hp from amalgams or the elite assassin, the trial adding 1 melee weakness+6 rage instead of 2 melee weakness+6 rage, or 1 less unit on a wave or 2 are thoughts I had, but of course any change would be appreciated.
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Showing 1-15 of 39 comments
To be.... diplomatic about it, dominion is only considered the hardest seraph by less experienced players.

If you speak to the players going for crown completion on discord - savagery is the hardest - you are correct.
Dickie Jul 23 @ 5:33pm 
I've never seen anyone say Savagery Seraph isn't the hardest, but I don't seek out much discussion of the game. That guy pretty much guarantees that I'm hitting all the arms merchants and rerolling to find the Inferno Room and making it deployable. I just have to set up second floor and eat the pyre damage from the Amalgams.
Phnugel Jul 23 @ 10:30pm 
I'm a bit torn on this. I completely agree with the observation, but I'm not convinced it's a problem. What makes it the hardest for more experienced players, while beginners struggle mainly with the two others, is that you can't build for it to quite the same degree. It's way more of a raw stat check, that punishes you if your numbers aren't big enough, fast enough. A stark contrast to the other two versions, which can be "solved" by preparing for the mechanic in advance.

I don't like the feeling of getting stat checked. It feels overly simplistic. But I also kind of like that it clearly stands out from the other two. It's a lot like Donu and Deca in StS. No fancy mechanics, just big numbers you have to deal with quickly.
Last edited by Phnugel; Jul 23 @ 10:31pm
B the Self Jul 23 @ 11:02pm 
I honestly think the sweepers are a bit overkill , those sweepers with 50 HP are a pain
+1
Originally posted by Phnugel:
I'm a bit torn on this. I completely agree with the observation, but I'm not convinced it's a problem. What makes it the hardest for more experienced players, while beginners struggle mainly with the two others, is that you can't build for it to quite the same degree. It's way more of a raw stat check, that punishes you if your numbers aren't big enough, fast enough. A stark contrast to the other two versions, which can be "solved" by preparing for the mechanic in advance.

I don't like the feeling of getting stat checked. It feels overly simplistic. But I also kind of like that it clearly stands out from the other two. It's a lot like Donu and Deca in StS. No fancy mechanics, just big numbers you have to deal with quickly.

Well put. There is a reason why hitting things really hard is a technique that still works reliably for humans after millions of years of evolution and millennia of knowledge and technology. Everyone loves weaving or unweaving an intricate web of fancy mechanics, but sometimes you just have to be able to deal with a boss hitting you really hard in the face.
The Fool Jul 24 @ 2:27pm 
Originally posted by Irene ❤:
I think this is why players have mixed review of the boss :

The starters are used to seeing units die, they naturally build a big deck to replace death ones, or to counter sweepers such as setting up a fire floor below. They won against rage with the most basic moves. The pros focus on breaking the game with synergy, sometimes they can get caught by surprise.

Most 'pro builds' are 300:BMswords: high damage stackers, but is still vulnerable to rage. They are good against sap or corruption since a bit of debuff is no big deal. But for starters, that sap totally remove their attack ability, so they feel sap is hardest.

If that 'pro build' also comes with quick, only then they will feel rage is no big deal - enemies die and they don't even feel a pinch.

Just look at the boss names during start and pick cards along the way to counter.
"Know your enemy and know yourself to win in Monster Train" - Sun Tzu
Maybe this is part of it? But I think the much bigger part is that savagery seraph scales a lot harder as you go to cov 10 and enable titan challenges than dominion (or entropy) does. Having to deal with chosen assassins when your units all come with melee weakness 2 is a gigantic step up from base savagery seraph. Whereas the chosen enemies in the dominion fight mostly just add more curses and the extra corruption from seraph isn’t as hard to deal with, and while entropy’s chosen enemies can be kinda nasty too, buffing the whole train, they’re not nearly as scary as the assassins and an extra 5 sap from seraph isn’t that big a deal. So when the “pros” are playing at cov 10 titans and the “starters” are playing at lower difficulties, the relative challenge levels are mixed up.
Last edited by The Fool; Jul 24 @ 4:05pm
Nemitri Jul 25 @ 7:52am 
The best way I have found to deal with his BS is to even be more savage, get a sweep unit, give it quick and multistrike, and scale its damage, make sure it has a damage soaker in front, and that's it, after all, the frontline will take 30 damage after the initial 90! from melee weakness. Some clans don't have sweepers unfortunately, so I do have to get creative there, perhaps a holdover AOE dmg spell can do the trick.

I think you can hide the whole floor and it won't get damaged (The tomb that gives stealth 2 on death saves your other units if I recall correctly).

But you aren't wrong, I used to think Corruption used to be the worst, not so much, Savagery is the worst offender for sure.

Sadly, in this game you no longer lose melee weakness if you have damage shield, it still stays, which makes this countermeasure temporary unless you can apply insane amounts.
I definitely hate Dominion Seraph more than Savagery, but that's mainly just from how corruption works - I just don't enjoy how that mechanic is utilized for the bosses. Savagery is definitely -harder- but I never go 'uuuuuugh' when I see savagery Seraph, but I do when I see Dominion.

I also think it's sometimes a bit of a slap in the face when you get your starting cards and you go 'woah that's some very cool synergy' and then you look at what bosses you face and they just completely counter it.
Phnugel Jul 25 @ 10:15am 
Originally posted by Tricking Trapster:
I definitely hate Dominion Seraph more than Savagery, but that's mainly just from how corruption works - I just don't enjoy how that mechanic is utilized for the bosses. Savagery is definitely -harder- but I never go 'uuuuuugh' when I see savagery Seraph, but I do when I see Dominion.

I also think it's sometimes a bit of a slap in the face when you get your starting cards and you go 'woah that's some very cool synergy' and then you look at what bosses you face and they just completely counter it.

100% with you there. Dominion is the version I have the easiest time beating, but it always feels like a chore. In general, I find the Seraph fight, all versions, to be by far the least interesting part of the game. I just look at the version when the run starts, preemptively throw 2/3rds of the possible builds in the trash, and continue from there without thinking any further about it. There is no meaningful choice or consideration once you have memorised what works and what doesn't against each version. It's mindless rote learning.
Originally posted by Phnugel:
I just look at the version when the run starts, preemptively throw 2/3rds of the possible builds in the trash, and continue from there without thinking any further about it. There is no meaningful choice or consideration once you have memorised what works and what doesn't against each version. It's mindless rote learning.
That's why I never look at the boss. I don't want to have to play a specific way to try to win, I just try to play to make a fun deck out of whatever random start I go with. (All I do is play all random.)
mbran031 Jul 25 @ 12:10pm 
Originally posted by ( °□°) ︵:
That's why I never look at the boss. I don't want to have to play a specific way to try to win,
Yea I don't look at the bosses either. I just build my deck around the fact that it might be any of them. The game seems more fun if my goal is to build a good deck, not just a deck that counters a specific target.
Phnugel Jul 25 @ 1:14pm 
Originally posted by mbran031:
Originally posted by ( °□°) ︵:
That's why I never look at the boss. I don't want to have to play a specific way to try to win,
Yea I don't look at the bosses either. I just build my deck around the fact that it might be any of them. The game seems more fun if my goal is to build a good deck, not just a deck that counters a specific target.

The problem with that approach is that the amount of builds that can deal with all three versions is much much smaller than 1/3 of the total viable builds. It's fine if you as a player still have fun playing that way, but it shouldn't come as a surprise that others would prefer to access a broader range of options. Ironically, the final boss isn't even remotely as restrictive to player expression as the Seraph fight. A ton of different, and really quirky, builds can eke out a victory there, but it is gated behind a fight that won't allow anything original to pass.

My problem isn't with balance. It is with the lazy design of hard counters in enemy design needlessly restricting creativity and exploration.
I don't think Savagery Seraph themselves needs a tuning specifically, the enemies around him are so much more of a bigger problem. Those 500 HP guys plus the amalgams with like, 475? Two of each in one wave? PLus a sweeper in the back just for good measure? It's a bit of overkill and doesn't feel like a challenge and more like 'did you encounter the correct cards this run to scale with'.
Originally posted by Tricking Trapster:
I don't think Savagery Seraph themselves needs a tuning specifically, the enemies around him are so much more of a bigger problem. Those 500 HP guys plus the amalgams with like, 475? Two of each in one wave? PLus a sweeper in the back just for good measure? It's a bit of overkill and doesn't feel like a challenge and more like 'did you encounter the correct cards this run to scale with'.
This, I don't enjoy these huge tanks and the sweepers spam too
I'm forced to just use the same tech , it gets boring vs Savagery
Originally posted by B the Self:
This, I don't enjoy these huge tanks and the sweepers spam too
I'm forced to just use the same tech , it gets boring vs Savagery
Twice as many clans, less ways to win.
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